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Date: 04 May 2005 21:43:18
From: Philippe Lemaire \(remove oldies\)
Subject: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...

What about the fishes ?

Philippe







 
Date: 05 May 2005 06:00:17
From: Elaine T
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
> I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
> that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...
>
> What about the fishes ?
>
> Philippe
>
>
>
Noooooo!!!
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_ferrocyanide_trihydrate.html
MSDS says it's lethal to fish at 19mg/l.

How did you get salt with something that nasty in it? I don't know what
country you're from. Here in the US, I can get pickling salt or kosher
salt at the grocery store. Both are cheap, free of additives, and fine
for aquaria.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__ ><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


  
Date: 05 May 2005 11:04:57
From: Philippe Lemaire \(remove oldies\)
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Elaine T wrote:
> Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>> I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
>> that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...
>>
>> What about the fishes ?
>>
>> Philippe
>>
>>
>>
> Noooooo!!!
> http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_ferrocyanide_trihydrate.html
> MSDS says it's lethal to fish at 19mg/l.
>
> How did you get salt with something that nasty in it? I don't know what
> country you're from. Here in the US, I can get pickling salt or kosher
> salt at the grocery store. Both are cheap, free of additives, and fine
> for aquaria.

Stangely enough Sodium ferrocyanide is described less critically (to
me)...

Philippe





   
Date: 05 May 2005 20:05:04
From: Elaine T
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>>Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
>>>that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...
>>>
>>>What about the fishes ?
>>>
>>>Philippe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Noooooo!!!
>>http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_ferrocyanide_trihydrate.html
>>MSDS says it's lethal to fish at 19mg/l.
>>
>>How did you get salt with something that nasty in it? I don't know what
>>country you're from. Here in the US, I can get pickling salt or kosher
>>salt at the grocery store. Both are cheap, free of additives, and fine
>>for aquaria.
>
>
> Stangely enough Sodium ferrocyanide is described less critically (to
> me)...
>
> Philippe
>
>

I did a bit more looking - I was curious. Sodium and potassium
ferrocyanide are very safe for people, rats, and dogs - no cyanide gets
released in your body when you eat them and they pass right through.
You would have to eat a whole container of salt at once to get a toxic
amount, and then the salt itself would make you sick.

Here's another MSDS that says an aqueous solution of posassium
ferrocyanide decomposes on standing. That means it would gradually
release cyanide in the aquarium.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p5752.htm

So it's fine for people, but not for fish.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><


    
Date: 06 May 2005 11:24:38
From: Philippe Lemaire \(remove oldies\)
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Elaine T wrote:
> Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>> Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
>>>> that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...
>>>>
>>>> What about the fishes ?
>>>>
>>>> Philippe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Noooooo!!!
>>>
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_ferrocyanide_trihydrate.html
>>> MSDS says it's lethal to fish at 19mg/l.
>>>
>>> How did you get salt with something that nasty in it? I don't know
what
>>> country you're from. Here in the US, I can get pickling salt or
kosher
>>> salt at the grocery store. Both are cheap, free of additives, and
fine
>>> for aquaria.
>>
>>
>> Stangely enough Sodium ferrocyanide is described less critically (to
>> me)...
>>
>> Philippe
>>
>>
>
> I did a bit more looking - I was curious. Sodium and potassium
> ferrocyanide are very safe for people, rats, and dogs - no cyanide gets
> released in your body when you eat them and they pass right through.
> You would have to eat a whole container of salt at once to get a toxic
> amount, and then the salt itself would make you sick.
>
> Here's another MSDS that says an aqueous solution of posassium
> ferrocyanide decomposes on standing. That means it would gradually
> release cyanide in the aquarium.
> http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p5752.htm
>
> So it's fine for people, but not for fish.

Thanks for the link !

So CN- cannot be broken by the plants ?

Philippe





     
Date: 06 May 2005 20:30:26
From: Elaine T
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>>Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>>
>>>Elaine T wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
>>>>>that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...
>>>>>
>>>>>What about the fishes ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Philippe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Noooooo!!!
>>>>
>
> http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_ferrocyanide_trihydrate.html
>
>>>>MSDS says it's lethal to fish at 19mg/l.
>>>>
>>>>How did you get salt with something that nasty in it? I don't know
>
> what
>
>>>>country you're from. Here in the US, I can get pickling salt or
>
> kosher
>
>>>>salt at the grocery store. Both are cheap, free of additives, and
>
> fine
>
>>>>for aquaria.
>>>
>>>
>>>Stangely enough Sodium ferrocyanide is described less critically (to
>>>me)...
>>>
>>>Philippe
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I did a bit more looking - I was curious. Sodium and potassium
>>ferrocyanide are very safe for people, rats, and dogs - no cyanide gets
>>released in your body when you eat them and they pass right through.
>>You would have to eat a whole container of salt at once to get a toxic
>>amount, and then the salt itself would make you sick.
>>
>>Here's another MSDS that says an aqueous solution of posassium
>>ferrocyanide decomposes on standing. That means it would gradually
>>release cyanide in the aquarium.
>>http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p5752.htm
>>
>>So it's fine for people, but not for fish.
>
>
> Thanks for the link !
>
> So CN- cannot be broken by the plants ?
>
> Philippe
>
>
Yes, plants can detoxify cyanide.
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/programs/aml/tech/news/chinese.htm Many
actually make cyanogenic compounds as a defense against being eaten so
they have to be able to detoxify any remaining HCN after an herbovore
grazes on them.

http://www.cyanidecode.org/library/cn_facts_health.html lists toxic
levels of cyanide to fish. If you cannot find a salt without the
additive, then you need to find out what percentage ferrocyanide is
added to the salt (I think it's in my other post from USDA GRAS) and
decide on a safe level to add to the aquarium. The plants and bacteria
should detoxify it from there.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__ ><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


      
Date: 07 May 2005 12:20:47
From: Philippe Lemaire \(remove oldies\)
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Elaine T wrote:
>> So CN- cannot be broken by the plants ?
>>
>> Philippe
>>
>>
> Yes, plants can detoxify cyanide.
> http://www.epa.gov/superfund/programs/aml/tech/news/chinese.htm Many
> actually make cyanogenic compounds as a defense against being eaten so
> they have to be able to detoxify any remaining HCN after an herbovore
> grazes on them.
>
> http://www.cyanidecode.org/library/cn_facts_health.html lists toxic
> levels of cyanide to fish. If you cannot find a salt without the
> additive, then you need to find out what percentage ferrocyanide is
> added to the salt (I think it's in my other post from USDA GRAS) and
> decide on a safe level to add to the aquarium. The plants and bacteria
> should detoxify it from there.

If I read well, it is 13 ppm...
From the label, I can only know there is less than salt 50% ;-)

Philippe






    
Date: 05 May 2005 18:31:31
From: yippie
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
On Thu, 05 May 2005 20:05:04 GMT, Elaine T <eetmail-aquaria@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>
>So it's fine for people


I wish you were as concerned about people!

ABC of Safe Practices ? Ellis and Perry 2001 - Hosted By Hoslink -
Return to Hoslink

POTASSIUM FERROCYANIDE [K4Fe(CN)6.3H20]


SYNONYMS
Yellow prussiate of potash, potassium hexacyanoferrate II.
GENERAL PRECAUTIONS
Avoid skin and eye contact.
Avoid inhalation or ingestion.
Keep away from heat.
Keep away from acids.
Wash hands thoroughly after handling.
CHARACTERISTICS
Yellow crystals or crystalline powder.
HEALTH HAZARD DATA
Potassium ferrocyanide can be absorbed into the body by inhalation or
ingestion of the powder. Insufficient medical data is available on the
effect of this substance on human health. It is a skin and eye
irritant. Inhalation will cause sore throat and coughing.
TREATMENTS
Skin ­ immediately remove contaminated clothing and wash the affected
area with soap or mild detergent and large amounts of water until all
evidence of the chemical has been removed (approximately 15 minutes).
If irritation persists seek medical attention. Wash contaminated
clothing before re­use.
Eyes ­ immediately wash the affected eye with large amounts of water
until all evidence of the chemical has been removed (approximately 15
minutes). If irritation or pain persist seek medical attention.
Inhalation ­ remove from the area of exposure to fresh air. If
breathing has ceased apply artificial respiration. Keep warm and allow
to rest. If irritation persists or develops seek medical attention.
Ingestion ­ wash out the mouth thoroughly with water and give water to
drink. Seek immediate medical advice.
INCOMPATIBILITY
Heating produces toxic fumes of hydrocyanic acid. Reaction with acids
can also produce hydrocyanic acid and strong oxidising agents.
STORAGE
Store in a cool, dry atmosphere away from heat and acids.
HANDLING
Use a fume hood to minimise exposure to this substance. Wear
protective clothing. A long sleeved laboratory coat or gown, rubber
gloves, safety goggles and a face mask as a minimum standard.
DISPOSAL
WEAR:
Long rubber gloves, self contained breathing apparatus and laboratory
coat.
SPILLS:
Eliminate all sources of ignition.
1 General treatment.
Absorb the liquid with vermiculite or on paper towel. If a solid sweep
on to paper towel. Place on an iron or glass dish in a fume hood.
Evaporate and burn the paper.
On skin: immediately wash the affected area with soap and a large
amount of water.
2 Hydrocyanic acid leak.
Turn on the fume hood. allow the gas to leak into a container of
sodium hydroxide solution while stopping the leak. Add excess calcium
hypochlorite to the alkali cyanide. discharge to the sewer with a
large excess of water.
3 Cyanides.
Scoop into a large beaker and make alkaline with sodium hydroxide
solution. Add to the slurry an excess of ferrous sulphate solution.
After one hour discharge to the sewer with a large excess of water.
4 Nitriles.
Add an excess of calcium hypochlorite solution to produce a cyanate.
Scoop the slurry into a large beaker. After one hour discharge to the
sewer with a large excess of water. Wash the spill site with a soap
solution containing some hypochlorite.
PACKAGE LOTS: Either
1 Add with stirring to strong calcium hypochlorite solution. Allow to
stand for 24 hours then discharge to the sewer with a large excess of
water.
OR
2 Liquid nitrile can be mixed with a flammable solvent and sprayed
into an incinerator equipped with an afterburner and scrubber.
ENVIRONMENT:


REFERENCES
BACK to the top of the Glossary Contents List
BACK to the top of the Chemical Contents List




     
Date: 06 May 2005 04:30:57
From: Elaine T
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
yippie wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2005 20:05:04 GMT, Elaine T <eetmail-aquaria@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>So it's fine for people
>
>
>
> I wish you were as concerned about people!
>
<snip of long, misleading MSDS >

Believe it or not, the oral rat LD50 for potassium ferrocyanide is 6400
mg/kg. That's a very low toxicity - far safer than aspirin (200 mg/kg)
and triple that of acetaminophen (2000 mg/kg). It's also approved as a
food additive in both the USA and EU for use as an anticaking agent in
salt and a clarifying agent in wine. MSDS sheets tend to list the worst
possible scenario. That is, what COULD happen if you happened to eat an
entire bottle of the chemical.

From the FDA's GRAS (generally recognized as safe) list:
Prussiate of soda, yellow (Na ferrocyanide decahydrate) - AC, REG, < 13
ppm calc as anhydrous Na ferrocyanide - Anticaking agent in salt -
172.490; AC/FEED, REG, 13 ppm -do; In salt for animal consumption - 573.1020

You should be more concerned about handling stuff like acriflavin
(mutagenic), malachite green (suspected carcinogen and banned from fish
farms), or bloodworms (sensitizing) then the potassium ferrocyanide in
your salt.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__ ><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


  
Date: 05 May 2005 10:58:03
From: Philippe Lemaire \(remove oldies\)
Subject: Re: Sodium and Potassium Ferrocyanide toxicity
Elaine T wrote:
> Philippe Lemaire (remove oldies) wrote:
>> I would like to add some NaCl in my tank but the package says
>> that the above products (E535 or E536) are added...
>>
>> What about the fishes ?
>>
>> Philippe
>>
>>
>>
> Noooooo!!!
> http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_ferrocyanide_trihydrate.html
> MSDS says it's lethal to fish at 19mg/l.
>
> How did you get salt with something that nasty in it? I don't know what
> country you're from. Here in the US, I can get pickling salt or kosher
> salt at the grocery store. Both are cheap, free of additives, and fine
> for aquaria.

Belgium

Fine tablesalt
Anticaking agent E535 or E536 in unspecified quantity
Made in EC

Thanks !

Philippe